PDA

View Full Version : [Product] Sandrige F-5 Information



paintball sycho
09-11-2008, 12:19 PM
THE SANDRIDGE/AAA PAINTBALL F-5

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1102/572600090_9775e31370.jpg



History and General Info:

Chances are that if you are reading this manual, you have come to be in possession of what is commonly referred to as a “Sandridge F-5” Autococker-style paintball maker. Chances also are, that you have no clue how it actually works or, god forbid, should it go down you don’t know how to bring it back to life. Well, much like many of the other custom marker manufacturers out there, the F-5 series has no real manual, merely one poorly written and, unfortunately, archived set of instructions from KC paintball. The only other option to that particular set is this refined set which includes up-to-date pictures of the Tiny Tornado (TF-5) version of the marker as well as full body/pneumatic close ups of the original Force Five (F-5).

F-5 Series frames were ultimately made and sold by two different companies. Originally, you needed to send your marker to Sandridge itself to be converted over to a Force Five. Later on, the owner of the company sold the name and rights to AAA Paintball who produced the frames in the latter years under the Sandridge name. The one advantage to the custom work done to modify the markers to F5’s is that most of the jobs were done using commercially available parts that are not paintball specific. This means that unlike the E-Blade or RACE frame series of Autococker frames, the F-5 series can still be repaired by finding a few parts from industrial suppliers online, or even running out to the local Radioshack. The downside is that not only is the front block a bit unsightly due to the two MAC valves mounted to the LPR by a harness, but that each marker may be slightly different in rather minute ways. This was never a large operation, and the complicated process of converting Angel LED and LCD frames to fit the needed electronic components and have them fit a WGP marker kept it from ever being so. What this means for you, as the owner of one of these magnificent monuments to paintball ingenuity, is that you hold in your hands one of the more rare and interesting markers of modern paintball. The very first electronically operated Autococker series which spawned no less than 4 separate attempts at imitation and allowed the Autococker to make the transition from mechanical high-end to electronic super-gun in it’s heyday.

As with any other great step forward, the F-5 series underwent at least one major revision. There are two separate F-5 conversions, the original Force Five and then the later “Tiny Tornado” version. They can be distinguished by simply looking at the grip frame. If the frame has a box (either black or colored) below it, then it is an original Force Five. That box houses the battery as well as the electronic circuitry that operates the marker’s timing. The grip-frame will also most likely be an older Angel LED style frame. If you have a Tiny Tornado, there will be no box at the bottom of the grip frame and the frame will be an Angel LCD style grip frame. Some early Force Fives also lacked the photo-electric eye and simply ran off of the Hall-effect sensor located on the ram. All versions use two MAC valves mounted parallel to the LPR and have two Hall-effect sensors at each end of the ram.

Original prices:

Sandridge Kit Installed
$750.00
Complete Gun w/ gun case(99 Cocker)
$1,200.00
Black Vertical Feed Sandridge Cocker w/ gun case
$1,550.00
Vertical Feed with one color & Milled
$1,400.00
Sandridge Spanky Cocker w/ gun case
$1,550.00
Vertical Feed 99 STO w/ gun case
$1,550.00
Custom Gun Up 8 Color Anodize & Milling
$1,750 - 2,250

paintball sycho
09-11-2008, 04:54 PM
Care and storage:
Always leave the marker de-cocked as leaving it in the cocked position puts undue stress on the drive spring and sear. Remember to pull the bolt and clean it after ever day of play. I suggest using Sl33k lube from DYE or a similar product to keep oil from working into the system and potentially damaging the MAC valves. Also, remember to remove the eye cover and clean the eye if you have chopped any paint or feel that the eye may have become dirty during play. The battery should be good for about 20,000 shots (see chart). And remember: NEVER ALLOW OIL TO ENTER THE MAC VALVES!!!!!

Manufacturer shots per
Duracell--------------15,000
Duracell Ultra--------22,000
Energizer------------15,000
Rayovak--------------4,000
Radio Shack-----------4,000
Energizer lithiums---38,000----new



The rear spring should never be compressed; this should be at full adjustment. Pull the bolt and clean it off after you play. Same with the eye. To clean the front end, unscrew the two little screws on the black bracket clamped on the reg. Slide the bracket forward. The MAC valves will come free. Disconnect things as you feel the need to clean. The only things that don't unplug are the ram sensors. Leave them alone. unless you want to do Step 3(see timing) again. When reattaching the Macs, be careful not to pinch any hoses, and that the front ram sensor screw isn't up too high where it will scratch the crap out of the barrel. Replace the battery about every ten cases, but have a spare ready.

Tuning your Autococker
The regulator pressure should always adjust Autocockers/F-5 s velocity.

Sweet spotting the regulator is not a quick process, but it is easy at least, and integral to an Autococker running at its most efficient. It is time consuming, and requires a good deal of air, and some paint. You also need a chronograph (those handheld radar chronographs are great for this)

The relationship between an Autococker's input pressure and velocity is in the shape of a bell curve. This means that as pressure goes up, so does velocity, but only to a point. There is a point where any more input pressure results in a lower velocity. This is because the excess pressure is causing the valve to shut prematurely, stifling velocity.

Start by turning your inline regulator all the way down to zero psi, also set your velocity adjuster at two turns in from all the way out. Now, increase your pressure slowly while shooting the marker over the chronograph. Adjust your pressure 25 psi at a time, and take five shots (give or take) over the chronograph to establish a velocity at that pressure. Continue this process until the velocity peaks, which is when any increase in pressure will result in a decrease of velocity. This point varies for every marker and is the most efficient pressure setting for your spring set. When the velocity drops, start lowering the pressure (5 psi at a time). The velocity should start to go up again. Gently nudge the pressure lower and lower (using those small increments) until any change, be it up or down, results in a lower velocity.

Now that the regulator is sweet spotted, you need to adjust the velocity adjuster to reach your desired velocity. With any luck, the regulator will sweet spot right around 290 fps. Try not to turn the velocity adjuster in more than half way, as it tends to put too much stress on the spring. If you can t reach your desired velocity, you will need to go back and change your main spring tension. If you can t get your velocity high enough, put in a slightly heavier mainspring (be sure not to make it heavier than the valve spring). If the velocity is too high, install a slightly lighter main spring. After you change the springs, you need to sweet spot the regulator again.

paintball sycho
09-11-2008, 04:55 PM
Setup :

Overview:

The F-5 is a self timing Autococker, the rate of fire is adjusted according to the data from both the infrared eye located on the right side of the marker and the information given the board by the hall-effect sensors that are clamped to the exterior of the ram. Essentially, the marker will fire as fast as you can fully cycle and feed it. The eye is a reflective infrared sensor, so if you have issues with the eye, you may want to try with another type of paint due to the fact that certain colors and finishes on rounds can often fool the eye. This is NOT a break beam eye, so it will not perform as well. The combination of the reflective eye and the hall-effect sensors on the ram however, more than compensate for the small decrease in reliability that a reflective sensor provides

In regards to the eye, should it become damaged or clogged with paint during a game, the marker will automatically revert to a 10bps cap, allowing you to continue firing without having to worry about switching the eye off. Should the eye clear during the shooting, the board will then automatically return you to the previous state, either 12.25bps (an old tournament cap number) or unlimited. Should the eye malfunction and tell the board that there is a ball in the chamber when it is only partially in, the hall-effect sensors on the front of the marker will notice the slight resistance caused by the pinched ball and re-cycle the bolt to allow the ball to drop properly without the risk of chopping it. The automatic ROF coding and use of hall-effect sensors mean that this marker is still one of the most intelligent systems ever produced, even by today’s standards.

F-5 Setup:

Step One: Installing the Kit:

Installation of an F5 series kit on your Autococker should only be performed by a competent airsmith with a wide array of tools at his/her disposal. It will require drilling and tapping of the body as well as precise aligning of the frame and sear with the body and hammer. It should not be attempted at home unless you are a competent machinist, or you have a lot of extra bodies lying around that you can afford to lose.

for locating and milling the eye follow the below drawing.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/sycho05/sandyholediagram.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/sycho05/old%20markers/DSCN0287.jpg

in theory a eblade eye could work, as could break beams with a little work.

paintball sycho
09-11-2008, 05:01 PM
Timing :


IF YOU HAVE PROBLEMS REPLACE YOUR BATTERY FIRST!!!!

This marker was first made by Sandridge and is now made by Triple A Paintball. It was the first electronic autococker, and still the fastest and smartest ones out there. The F-5's are made with industrial parts that are easy and still able to get. Most of the time if you marker is not working it is a autococker part that is not right. This page contains more info than you will ever need to fix the marker. Just as any custom autococker something are the same and some are different.

The F-5 is self timing, the rate of fire adjusts on how fast you can feed balls. There is two rates of fire on the Force 5, 12.25 bps and unlimited rate of fire. Because the gun is self timing it eliminates chopped paint of misfiring of the gun. The gun has a photo eye on the side, this photo eye is a inferred reflective sensor. The sensor is reflective not passive like a Rev Hopper, it works opposite of the sensor on a Rev Hopper. If the photo eye picks the image of a ball in the chamber it speeds the gun up. A lot of people have concerns that a photo eye is just something that can be broke or get dirty. Don't worry we have thought of that. Even though we have a protective cover over the eye, slamming up against a bunker can do almost anything to a marker. With this in mind we have made the brain, yes the Force 5 has a brain. The little black box hold the computer board. If your eye was to ever get broke off or dirty with paint to where it can not read like it is made to, the brain will take over and switch your gun over to 10 bps till the eye is working again or you pull eye wire off then it back to 12.25 bps. Now that's what I call back up. The Force 5 is also Anti-Chop, the gun wont chop paint. Sensors on the front of the gun and the eye work together here, if the sensor on the front sense a ball in the chamber and the eye doesn't show that it is lined up right, the bolt will retract. Saving you from a chopped or pinched ball in your gun.

The F-5 has a black box on the bottom of the grip. TF-5 doesn't have the black box. All have 2 - Mac valves on the front. And if you never owned a autococker this is not the gun for you. You still have to time this gun like a autococker and in some ways it is easier to time.

First it is important that you know Don't oil your valves, it will destroy your valves. MAC Valves are for non oiled uses. Oil makes them slower by gumming up the valve.

Contents:

* Step 1: Set back block position
* Step 2: Set cocking rod length and ram sensors
* Step 3: Set ram sensors
* Step 4: Set sear-lug length (cocking point)
* Step 5: Set the trigger ( firing point)


Tuning your Autococker

Things that can go wrong with a F-5:

* Bolt goes back, but isn't cocking.
* Gun acts generally nutty
* Gun shoots fast, but not really fast
* Blow back
* Marker cocks but doesn t fire a ball
* Solenoid leaking

Step 1: Set back block
This is the same for any autococker.

Step 2: Set cocking rod length
This is the same for any autococker.

Step 3: Set ram sensors
This is where F-5 part start to play a roll in timing of the autococker. This sets the self timing of the gun and when the sensor are removed for cleaning or just come loose. First unplug the eye wire. Inside the box on board there is prongs labeled j1 and j2 on the board and on some boards it has solder across one of them and must be un-solder for timing. Find the jumper plug, shunt or small wire, there should be one on j1. Move the jumper onto the set of prongs labeled J2, these prongs are used for timing the gun only, when you place the jumper or shunt on J2 set of prongs you will see a little LED light come on, UNPLUG THE EYE WIRE, the light should only come on when your back block is all the way forward or when its all the way back (where the gun is cocked) + or - a few centimeters. If the light doesn't come on the sensor must be moved to where they do come on. If the light comes on in these positions that will tell you that the sensors on your RAM are set in the right place. Remove jumper from j2 for normal operating. If you put the jumper / shunt on J1 prongs it will increase your ROF for your gun, as long as this plug is on this set of prongs it will shoot significantly faster then if it was off those prongs.

Step 4: Set sear-lug length (cocking point)
This is the same for any autococker.

Tip: You can help stabilize the sear by add a washer to each side of the sear pin Don't bind up the sear in any way just take out some of the sideway slack. Make sure that the sear pin and the trigger pin is not bent

Step 5: Set the trigger (firing point)

The final step setting the trigger. This is a angel part and can be replaced with any angel LCD trigger. Make sure that the trigger pin is not bent. When the grip is removed from the frame you can see the top of the trigger. There are 2 set screws 1 you can see and one is in the hole. These limit the travel of the trigger. The one you can see limits the pull, how far the trigger can be pulled back past the click. The other in the hole set the front of the pull and how close it is to the click. Your marker is turned on, the red light on ace is on, but nothing happens-[/font]
[FONT='Times New Roman','serif'] The trigger switch adjustment is to tight or to loose, which is not activating the switch (this is common in guns that have very short trigger pull.

Make sure not pinch the wire and hose then reinstalling frame.

Tip: A pen spring can be put down the hole, up to the body for a faster trigger return and firm trigger . Make sure it slide in the hole not forced in the hole.

That's it! Assuming that nothing is wrong with the rest of the 'gun, these four steps should get your 'gun back in time and working properly. Since I gave a lot of detail above, I'll just summarize the four steps one more time.

1. Set the block such that it just touches the back of the 'gun body with the ram all the way forward.
2. Set the cocking rod length such that the bolt completely clears the breech when the sear catches.
3. Set the sensor so the light only come on when your back block is all the way forward or all the way back.
4. Set the sear lug such that the 'gun catches the lug
5. Set trigger so you here the clicking, and don't pinch wire or hose

paintball sycho
09-11-2008, 06:14 PM
all information from one of the following:

tallen of mcarterbrown.com
kcpaintball from kcpaintballpage.com(now defunct)
myself
conqueror of customcockers.com
doc nickel of docsmachine.com
have_blue's Rats nest
the tinkerers guild
the scog
wolf 13

special thanks to
wolf 13
kcpaintball
kmac
tallen

paintball sycho
09-11-2008, 06:31 PM
OEM Repair Parts:

Front Pneumatics:
1. Pump-Arm Ram: SMC # NCDJ2B10-100R-B

2. Ram Sensor: SMC # D-C80
Both are available from http://www.smcusa.com distributors

3. Valves: Mac # 44C-AAA-GDSA-1KA (6VDC, 1.8W)
Available from http://www.macvalves.com distributors
Available from http://www.airsoldier.com (http://www.airsoldier.comalso)also.

4. Elbow: # 3109 53 20
5. Y-fitting: #3140 53 00
Both are from Legris: http://www.legris.com to find distributors
Later Sandridge Cockers switched both the 90 degree fittings and the y-fitting to SMC equivalents.

6. Mac mounts: #49020 7/8" Standard (MUST BE MILLED)
Available from www.weaver.com (http://www.weaver.com)

Grip Frame Components:

Trigger Pin: Standard Angel LCD/LED Pin

Trigger: Standard Angel LCD Double Trigger

Trigger Switch: Omron D2F (Available from http://www.airsoldier.com )

Sear Ram: Clippard SDR-05-05-N (Product must be milled by end user)

Sear: use or find someone to mill you another

Eye Sensor:

Eye: Omron ee-spy411 (Available from http://www.airsoldier.com )

TF-5 Grip/F-5 Box Components:

8-pin Wire To Board Connector: AMP 8POS MTA100

Switch: Radio Shack

9v Plug: Radio Shack

2-pin connector: AMP 2POS MTA100

Board: UNIVERSAL T-BOARD, morlock

* NOTE: that the TTF-5 didn’t use a connector, they had all the wires direct soldered.

paintball sycho
09-13-2008, 05:29 PM
BOLTS: only white/silver tipped bolts will work. the eye doesnt pick up a black bolt and as so it thinks the eye is bad.


electronics:

there where five variations or boards for the f-5 series made

1.standard f-5 board- production
*located in black box

2.standard f-5 board- early production
*50 total
*direct soldier connections
*located in black box

3.tiny tornado board-early production
*25 total
*located in the grip frame
*had short wire pigtail
*used a double dip switch bank for timing

4.tiny tornado board- production
*located in the grip frame
*direct solder/ no wire plug
*used a double dip switch bank for timing

5. Team F-5 Board
*10 total made
* located in black box
*easily identified by a green coating over entire board and componets
*these had a shot buffer and tossed in random extra shots.
*slightly better eye logic



optional boards:
morlocks
t-board(universal dual)
excalibur boards(if you can find a way to fit it)

paintball sycho
02-12-2010, 05:49 PM
the utb has been proven to work fine with the mac solinoids, but do note you will need to let damon know that you plan on using mac noids with it. and expect a bit of additional wiring. after willing the frame out a bit i managed to squeeze it all in but i am using break beam eyes and a mq2 valve. also please note that the 43 series mac valves are direct swaps for the 44 series if you need replacements i would replace both with 43's. if you have old brass mac valves expect to be replacing them within a few months of getting it.

current going rate for a f-5 in good working condition is around 250-350 and sometimes higher depending on the marker. ie bull dogs lightning single finger triggered f-5 would should expect to pay at least 2000 for (assuming you could pry it from him)